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The Scientist: NewsBlog:
Economy hits senior Salk prof
Posted by Elie Dolgin [Entry posted at 8th April 2009 04:10 PM GMT]
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Any new development? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-12-30 12:35:32] Dr. H is a well-respected neuroscientist who deserves a better treatment than Salk could give him. Since the initial posting, I wonder if there is any new development to this story. What happened to Dr. H and his people in the lab? I just wish them well and best of luck in 2010! Short term thinking by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-27 21:49:18] It is sad to see some of the posts here by people that appear to be young scientists. I'm referring to those that suggest that the number of papers a scientist publishes in "high impact journals" is a measure of "productivity". The best way to publish lots of papers, even in high impact journals, is to find a paradigm or hypothesis that is popular at the moment, then milk it with more or less obvious experiments. The professional editors (not scientists) at the high impact journals will decide that lots of people will want to read the paper. Reviewers will be prepared to accept the premise of the paper. This kind of science is fine; but it is not enough. Truly innovative experiments that blaze new trails are often published in less flashy journals and take a few years to be recognized for what they are. Then they catalyze a new round of flashy, more or less obvious experiments. It is frequently the more senior scientists who begin to explore more difficult new ideas; it used to be the case that they could afford to do so more than younger investigators. Such studies take longer and produce fewer papers than the flashy ones. But they ultimately have a greater effect on the progress of our understanding. If younger people (and grant reviewers!) have fully embraced the notion that productivity is measured by counting papers, our science will suffer and ultimately stall. Perhaps some of these commenters should look at what Dr. H has published over the last few years for a hint at questions that will occupy the field in the future. Just a thought by Adam Perrotta [Comment posted 2009-04-27 15:28:09] Recently I have been questioning the wisdom of having science funding being so heavily dependent on the government. I think private philanthropy is a better way to go.
Why not resort to "cyberbegging" for funds from private donors? Why not have researchers, junior and senior alike, solicit donations online from private citizens? Even small amounts like $10, $25 or $50, can add up. If the Octo-Mom can solicit donations online, why can't scientists? Steve should go: Good Riddance by Ian Trowbridge [Comment posted 2009-04-21 14:58:47] Steve has always been for Steve the prima donna. Who has he ever mentored and what did he ever do for Salk as an Institution except help remove former presidents who didn't give him and other members of the tennis club what they wanted? re: Is it too much? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-13 09:00:01] Look, Dr H must be a smart guy. This didn't just happen out of the blue. The stock market has been tanking for almost 2 years. Remember, it reached its peak in the summer of 2007. So, "his" endowment has been tanking for almost 2 years! Which means that Salk has been supporting his salary out of other funds (remember until recently it was illegal to use the principal) for almost as long. I am sure he was given hints and informal suggestions to close down or drastically reduce the size of his lab for months. That he didn't reduce it enough and hasn't produced enough pubs over the last few years to justify more external funding says it all. Is it too much? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-10 14:11:38] Is it really too much to give HIS money 2 more years to wrap up his lab (Students to graduate & Postdocs to get jobs) by himself with dignity?
Is it really only way to expel him like it with only 3 months? Is 3 months enough time for students and postdocs to complete his/her projects? The endowment is the money he raised BY himself and FOR himself anyway! He is still active and has two grants! I believe that this incident will be resolved rationally and fairly. The new president (from March 1st), Dr. William Brody is well known person (successful former president of Johns Hopkins) and I am sure he will clean up the mess what previous authority made of. re :It's about capability not age! by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-10 07:48:07] I think some may have misinterpreted my post regarding age and capability. I was trying to make two points; the first was to those who wrote in regard to his stepping down because of his age in order for junior researchers to have a chance. Secondly; is the financial state of the USA and the world. It is always a shame when such a prestigious university must cut funding for cutting edge medical research. I'm sure that if the professor was no longer capable and the university had the funds, that they would find someone else more competent to continue the lab. Instead of shutting the lab down, putting all it's personell out of work and possibly losing ground on the research that had been completed.
Also, remember as stated in the article, that he is trying to help the others find new positions at other universities. who is to throw the first stone? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-09 14:06:04] I can understand and share the frustration expressed on medical research. By quitting medicine and going in to biochemistry and biology did not help me either. Few branches of science seem to be free of this disease. Right now I am up to my neck in a brewing battle as to why journals would rather not publish any work that does not support GM plants.
The rule is simple. Find things that can be sold to developing countries where markets can be manipulated. You cannot do that in Europe. Given this market wisdom, it does not take much for plant scientists to tow the line. Of course there is no overt corruption. You do not need any. Just go with the flow! That's what I said before by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-09 05:47:21] "If a great deal of research is not knowledge-based but market oriented, then the market deciding the fate of research is well justified.The market-based research will have its lobbyists, loyalists, promoters, administrators and so on and will suffer from all the consequences of the jungle out there. This is all that I see in these arguments either way."
Medical researchers have been less than honest about lacking sufficient basic data of biology before trying to search for the cure for a disease. It's more tantalizing and sexier to sell one's grant proposal by promising to find something "significant" towards curing a disease than promising to find a generic new mechanism for a biological process which, in fact, may be a key component that goes wrong in that particular disease. Obviously this sales pitch works best for deadly diseases such as cancer. As one with years of experience in medical research field, I have come to be very skeptical, if not cynical, about the claimed worthiness of research by even the prominent labs related to finding the cure for a deadly disease. It is a pity, but is it? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 23:15:10] Cutting of funds is painful. But the reaction is no different from stocks plummeting, as far as I could make out. Commercial considerations dominate much of science now. It is not an essentially public funded welfare activity though the scientists often confuse their role of beneficiaries with benefactors. Long before the onset of recession, the reasons became operative. Malafide intentions/activities of which Wall street is blamed for is just one of them, though it got maximum attention. Here again the discussion is running in a similar vein, jr vs sr, admin vs. researchers and so on.It is the things that we take for granted that ultimately pull us down.
If a great deal of research is not knowledge-based but market oriented, then the market deciding the fate of research is well justified.The market-based research will have its lobbyists, loyalists, promoters, administrators and so on and will suffer from all the consequences of the jungle out there. This is all that I see in these arguments either way. On the other hand, what are the solutions...stimulus packages!? It is time we develop meta-analyses that tell us how much work is repetitive and 'claim jumping' related and how much is creative. The former could well be pruned and savings be diverted to the later. Interestingly, we have little to reflect on the work other than its citations and other 'club' activities that are promotional rather than introspective. Sociology and market analyses/domination of reseach is what needs to be addressed to and unfortunately, since we benefit from it, we are afraid to rock the boat. The boat is being rocked. We could at least get wiser. Prof. H. biggest sin by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 19:01:16] Prof. H. biggest sin was to point out the obvious elephant in the room!
"If you are going to sin, sin against God, not the bureaucracy. God will forgive you but the bureaucracy won't" Hyman Rickover (1900 - 1986) What is eating the Salk Institute budget? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 17:48:51] What it?s eating the Salk Institute budget is not their scientists but their enormous bureaucracy. That?s the elephant in the room they don?t want to talk about. At one time, they had 6-7 vice-presidents (a whole country needs only one!). The Salk institute with less than 200 million dollars in assets spends nearly 20% of their budget in Administrative Expenses (bureaucracy!) and its president earns over $2.000.000/year (Read: LINK that?s 2% of the institute?s net assets. Compare with The Scripps Research Institute across the street with over 500 million dollars in assets spend less than 5% of its budget in Administration and pays its president less than $1,000,000 (0.27 % of its assets!!)No wonder they are in financial trouble!
Dr. H. is too humble to mention the fact that thanks in part to him, Salk, Scripps, USCD & Burnham got nearly $12,000,000 dollars on NIH funding (LINK Dr. H. has worked very hard for the neuroscience community and now this is how they pay him. I agree with one of the previous comments, "many top places would like to have him on their faculty" Funding is in decline, private and public by Sergio Vasquez [Comment posted 2009-04-08 16:37:25] Despite the stimulus for several large federal grant-giving bodies, it is largely earmarked for support of existing grants for ongoing research, with a minuscule percentage reserved for novel research and new investigators. This is essentially a stop-gap measure to ensure the current funding infrastructure continues -- a bridge, if you will, to connect the drop in the economy (circa 2007) to the foreseeable rise in the economy (circa 2010). In the interim, people are being let go, new funding is being scaled back, and new hiring is being postponed to ensure the solvency of research institutions, public and private. It is a rational business decision to "persuade" into retirement an aging, tenured researcher with a relatively large lab, high overhead, and less than adequate publication production, but it is also a rational business decision to take any measure necessary to stay in business. If anyone wants to make this an ethical discussion, be my guest; in the end, the writing is on the wall for every employed laborer, resume and CV be damned. Salk Scientists: Jump off the boat when you still can!! by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 16:32:31] Dr. H will be OK, and many top places would like to have him on their faculty. If I were him I would have moved away quietly already and be a Director or Chairman in a top university.
I believe that Salk is making a huge mistake on this. How about other scientists? Should they jump off the boat when they are still young and may be better appreciated elsewhere? They should talk to Dr. H and make a smart decision or protest in group. Salk would think twice about kicking Dr. H out if all other sr scientists decide to leave at once. A sad note: Is this how we will be treated one day when the institution finds that you are less valuable? It is not an issue of jr. vs. sr by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 16:20:20] I do not believe that this is an issue of jr. vs. sr. If there is plenty money, all ages should be supported. When the money is tight and your productivity is low, the money usually goes to those with higher production rate. If all possible, supporting a jr faculty is even more important, not because they are smarter (but they have to be equally good as a sr), but because they will have far more impacts on the future of sciences. Thus, nobody is in favor of discriminating against sr scientists. I thought I would need clarify my point.
"Why is it there are always those who decry the fate of the poor Jr scientist? as if just by being younger they are more deserving and more intelligent then those who have been at work for decades and have proven there worth." re:re: it's about capability not age by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 15:12:33] the chair was created for him because of research in his lab and maybe that money should be used to help fund his postdocs until they find suitable jobs.
Is his chair money not enough because it does not have overhead (ie dedicated amount for salk administration?) Salk PD. Yes say it straight.. by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 15:11:38] I read your comment. Perhaps you didn't read mine. If Salk can take the money away then.....
It is not his money..... Plain and simple. You can argue that it wouldn't exist without his work but his work might not exist without Salk. Since neither of us have access to the original endowment contract we are only speculating. But, the fact that Salk can take it away means it is not his money. You can whine about it not being fair to him but is he being fair to Salk or selfish? As to your other comments akin to "taking it outside" no thanks. I like to minimize the whiny e-mails I get. Salk PD. Yes say it straight... by L D [Comment posted 2009-04-08 15:03:24] Either you're a troll or you didn't really read my post.
This case has nothing to do with publications nor with grants. This is about an endowment that was pulled from him when it was something he brought in. Seems to me that you're just looking to start a pointless argument by misdirecting the issue you asked about (which was what did I mean by my comment). By the way, how many publications and grants do you have? Have you ever written one? In any case, we can continue this discussion via email, if you so wish, because I'm done talking to Anonymous. Entitlement by Adam Smith [Comment posted 2009-04-08 14:55:07] Why is it there are always those who decry the fate of the poor Jr scientist? as if just by being younger they are more deserving and more intelligent then those who have been at work for decades and have proven there worth.
Any idiot can get a Post Doc, it's probably harder to screw up getting one than to get one. There is already a great excess of us and some will have to do something else (it may end up being me). The attitude of entitlement on display here one of the reasons we are in this economic mess. Every whim of the self-absorbed does not deserve to be funded. Salk PD. Yes say it straight... by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 14:48:36] Show us the data..simplify it please.
We can count recent pubs and grants. Maybe we are missing something not easily available in the public domain. re :It's about capability not age! by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 14:40:30] His contract is not being renewed because he is not capable (a.k.a incapable) of bringing in enough external dollars to fund his lab and salary and Salk is no longer willing to foot the bill with their money. And yes, it is their money or else they would not be able to take it away from him.
Most comments say that he is lucky he can retire while expressing sadness for the Post-docs who can not retire. He still has a NIH grant and can probably get a job at one of the nearby schools. Re: Not sure what PD is implying... by L D [Comment posted 2009-04-08 14:36:42] I'm not implying anything; I'm saying it straight:
It is disturbing to think that people who might be reviewers for scientific journals are willing to make judgement calls without looking at the data. Do I need to simplify it a bit more? Not sure what the Salk PD means but.. by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 14:28:58] Salk PD said "you are likely the same people that serve as peer reviewers for scientific journals."
What are you implying? Sounds like something out of a Mary Shelley novel. It's about capability not age! by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 14:26:37] To all of the folks out there who believe that he should be dismissed because of his age, I say you should be ashamed. Ask yourself how you feel about being passed over because you are young? Either way it is wrong, and should not be allowed. Do you want to be told that you can't work anymore when you become too old (even though you may be the greatest researcher who ever lived)? Think about it, I know I would be apalled if it were to happen to me. I got to where I am because of my capabilities and not my age. I would expect to be fired if I was incapable. In my opinion it is a sad time we live in, when medical research labs (with both young and old losing their jobs) can be shut down due to lack of funds or interest. Fact is I have met Dr. Heinemann, and he, and his lab personnel, are quite competent, so this is truly a shame. is it fair to the postdocs? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 14:24:55] from what I understand the notice was quite sudden and they were given only 3 months notice to find a job....what are their options:
1. do another postdoc (its hard to find funding for postdocs older than 3 years and given funding in labs recently not a viable option) 2. industry (in this economy when biotechs are going under or downsizing???) 3. academic job (which would require more than 3 months). I feel sorry for the postdocs. Dear Salk Post-Doc by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 14:24:15] Without seeing the actual contract that setup the Endowed Chair I am only guessing but if Salk can pull the money then it is their money not his. Why he let them set it up this way you will have to ask him. My guess is that he got a cut of the Merck money and so did Salk. Salk took their cut and built the endowment to fund his lab with the interest. Now H wants the principal because there is no interest and Salk balked.
I'm a Salk Postdoc by L D [Comment posted 2009-04-08 14:14:37] I've read quite a few of the comments made and find myself appalled at how people will comment and criticize based on almost zero information. This is made worse by the fact that some of you are likely the same people that serve as peer reviewers for scientific journals.
For instance, the chair that was pulled from Steve was created BECAUSE OF HIM FOR HIM way back when. So, according to some of you, there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking that chair and giving it to younger faculty (as if that automatically makes someone more deserving of it). Why don't we apply that to your savings accounts? Let's wait till you are all over 50 and take that money and give it to someone in their 30s because they "deserve" it more... What a bunch of bull$hit. Granted, we need to do a better job of helping us younger scientists getting a start in academia but not by screwing people out of what they have earned. re:lab picture very old by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 13:52:32] That doesn't help the publication ratio much. He still has 3 post-docs, 1 grad student and a lot of techs. (All of whom I feel bad for).
This is all quibbling anyway. He has done a lot of great work. Just not recently. He doesn't have enough Fed money to support his lab and Salk is cutting him lose. He wants to spend down the endowment, Salk wants to keep it for future or current faculty. He enjoyed 40 successful years living on soft money now it's time to pay the piper. He costs more money than he brings in. lab picture very old by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 13:20:19] the H. lab does not have 20 people. They have not had that many people in years.
Here is the list of people in the lab. However even this list is far from updated (I work at salk and I know that at least 3 of those postdocs left 3 years ago...and I'm also positive they have not hired any new postdocs since these people have left: LINK PubMed publications by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 13:16:32] I stated clearly that I listed senior authored (last authored) papers from his lab. In many places, only these papers count toward productivity.
I agree that the quality and impact are far more important than quantities. However, it will be hard to convince anyone that Dr. H has been productive if one calculates #papers per person or per dollar spent. If you were Salk President, you would ask yourself: Do I give the 2 millions to another PI who published more papers per year (say 3-5 per years in high impact journals)? If you were NIH, you would also ask whether it would be a good idea to give the limited money to a jr faculty, who will at least keep the same publication rate? Nothing against Dr. H. Reality bites, and it bites into everyone of us, including Dr. H. My professional view is that Dr. H had his days and let's move on and open doors to other equally smart and capable young scientists!! re:pubmed publications by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 13:10:34] I think the original post was abundantly clear. It only included work where he is the senior author. That is, work that, presumably, originated from his lab and not work from another lab where he is a collaborator.
That said, even the extra papers you cite still doesn't say much for a lab of 20 people. Maybe these are all high quality papers each worth 5 regular papers. Or, maybe he is getting published in the journals because of his name and reputation. pubmed publications by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 13:02:20] you must have a different pubmed search engine than me:
2009:2 last author, 1 co-author 2007:1 last author, 2 co-author (one where one of his postdocs is first author) 2006: 3 last author, 4 coauthor (1 of which where last and first authors were postdocs in the lab) Personally I don't think the # of publications should matter as much as the quality and given the high impact journal publications that come from the lab and it is a mouse lab (you can't compare this with a biochemistry lab for example) where projects do take longer I think his lab is still quite productive. re:Still productive? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 12:42:32] He has no prayer for a renewal of his R01 grant with numbers like that.
I counted 20 people in his lab website picture (LINK Even if many are techs, the pub rate looks even worse. Still productive? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 12:34:52] Here is a PubMed list of primary publications from Dr. H's lab (i.e. he is a senior author):
2009 2 papers 2008 Zero 2007 1 2006 2 2005 1 Per dollar productivity wise this is very low and he would not get tenure in some top schools! The question now is, should we use the limited money to support another highly driven and productive jr faculty? Very unfortunate, indeed by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 12:27:53] But, particularly for the postdocs and staffs who will be hit financially and career-wise most. If something like this happened at a prestigious institution, like Salk, one can only imagine how bad it is at the less prestigious labs across America. It also make one whether the overall situation is better or worse in Canada, Japan, and Europe, now. Dear Burkholder by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 12:27:34] But, the US gov't is funding his research. It is the private money that is being withdrawn. Perhaps you could read the article next time. still publishing in high impact journals.... by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 12:26:17] His lab is still very productive. Just this year (2009) his lab has published a J. Neuroscience and a Neuron paper. All this and numerous grants...does not sound like a stagnant failing lab. sign of the times by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 12:25:45] This is indeed a sign of the times. I think you can draw parallels between corporate excesses and megalabs. Do labs have to be that big to be productive?
Another thing, annual contracts do not equate to tenure. You either have it or you don't. Salk Research by Joan Burkholder [Comment posted 2009-04-08 12:22:13] Thank you for printing this article. Frankly, children a persons age is not important if they are still contributing to the betterment of mankind and life in general. As a manufacturer of products for neurological research, we have been aware of the fine work done by Dr. H. and his co-workers for many years. What the real issue is the POOR attitude regarding support of Health Research and what a FINE attitude we have in this country in support of weapons to destroy everything. There should be no problem of providing work for every research scientist worth their salt in this country. SHAME, SHAME on our Government for not supporting Medical research. Response to 'He is still working by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 12:21:33] In the US, forced retirement at age 65 is against the law for university professors. Thus, it is very common that many successful or unsuccessful senior professors occupy positions that could have gone to jr folks. It is up to the individual to decide whether or when to retire. Fair or not, it is the US system (unlike the rest of the world, sounds familar?!). Two NIH grants? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 12:05:37] According to CRISP (LINK he "only" has 1 active NIH grant (LINK Which is not enough to fund the lab of a Senior Salk investigator.
Plus, it will be up for renewal in 2011. A bad time to renew a grant. But he's still working by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 11:57:45] I agree with the other comments. However, it should also be noted that this is a man who has not retired at 65. He is occupying a place that would/should go to someone from the next generation. If this were an isolated case, that would be one thing. However, there are so many older men (and a few women) still working and still occupying positions that the next generation of scientists has many fewer opportunities than they should have. This is also something to look at. Do you want us to cry for... who? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-08 11:47:40] Steve is a highly accomplished neuroscientist. However, this is not a case to cry about. Look at the bright side: he still has two NIH grants and other private funding and a dozen of associates in his lab. Look at the dark side of today's sciences: many many well-trained and talented folks (particularly jr faculty) have NO grant at all. Steve is about to retire, but these folks will be forced out of job and given an 'early retirement' (i.e. layoff). Hence, I am surprised that The Scientist would be featuring such a 'sad' story. What is sad is for the majority of the scientists in this country, and I would not shed one drop of tears for Steve (although I respect him greatly)! Thank you by BRADLEY ANDRESEN [Comment posted 2009-04-08 11:47:05] A sincere thank you to The Scientist for posting this story; additionally, my hat is off to Dr. Heinemann; it is honorable to look out for your students as is reported.
I have to question how open and transparent the Salk institute has been, and what they feel their responsibility is towards the trainees in their institute. There should have been more warning that appears to be indicated in this article so that the trainees could find a new place of employment. Comment on this blog |