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The Scientist: NewsBlog:
Are lab standards harmful?
Posted by Alla Katsnelson [Entry posted at 30th March 2009 06:49 PM GMT]
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Variability, or better design and statistical methods? by anonymous poster [Comment posted 2009-04-01 14:26:46] Thank you for yet another fascinating perspective on experimental science. It boils down to a debate: should variability be minimized and ideally eliminated (orthodox scientific method); or should variability be optimized (definition needed), in imitation of unavoidable real-world variability, to facilitate feasibility of reproducibility? The intuitive answer is to stick with the orthodoxy, in agreement with Dr. Jonas Moses. But I think the article presents Kafkafi?s arguments quite persuasively.
These questions so far are being considered within the framework of the scientific method, which assumes that there are no ?rogue? variables ? all are either independent or controlled. But what if, due to chaos, or some other effect not yet discovered, we agree that it is currently impossible to ensure the absence of rogue variables to a significant degree? In this model, adding deliberate variability to experiments is analogous to error-seeding in computer science: You assume that undetected errors are present, and you deliberately add or ?seed? a known quantity of deliberate errors to the system to be tested. Then, you submit the system for testing. Since you know the magnitude of the errors deliberately added, and you know the magnitude of the size of the system, and you know the magnitude of the errors found in testing, you can deduce the likely magnitude of errors remaining in the system which were not deliberately added. This theory makes many assumptions, but the point of bringing it up is to suggest that what we really may need here is not the variability itself, but rather an improvement in our ability to select and apply appropriate statistical techniques to clarify the heterogeneity of the underlying populations of which the mice are crude representatives, before any experiments are run. A related issue is that in many cases, the arbitrary definitions of the ?problem? conditions to be treated (e.g., high blood pressure) as well as the criteria which specify eligibility in the population to be recruited (which includes both ?affected? and non-affected individuals), may themselves introduce a high amount of variability. I think that the issue of deliberate variability to be introduced in experiments may recede, once the problem definitions and the class-membership criteria, along with the experimental designs, are given greater analytical attention. With the increasing difficulty of finding funding, greater analytical attention up front seems inevitable anyway. Variation is information by THAD NOWAK [Comment posted 2009-03-31 15:32:00] Although use of heterogeneous experimental populations might be of some advantage in identifying generalized effects, recognition of potential interactions among experimental variables remains of critical relevance to any experimental endeavor. It must simply be assumed that every variation and combination thereof can impact outcome until proven otherwise, and consistent differences then become informative. The clinical analogy made in the article is perhaps no longer useful, since identification of appropriately selected patient populations is increasingly recognized as a necessary component of trials in complex disease states, and this will become only more the case as rational bases for personalized medicine continue to evolve. Determining the specific sources of bothersome endpoint variability in any field will only contribute to progress. knockout mice by Shannon Beasley [Comment posted 2009-03-31 00:08:39] We have found in the concerted effort in making knockout mice for research, people who are doing other work on mice have gone against the main aim of animal ethics and resulted in using more mice than originally required in order to get viable results.
In our lab studies on CNS autoimmune diseases the mice we are using do not reproduce results achieved in earlier years. One of the factors is the 'ultra clean' environment they are housed in, and also the centre that the mice are sourced from. This centre prides itself in clearing multiple pathogen and natural gut flora from the mice they supply to labs over the country. All this focus is to make the process of making knockout mice easier. Whilst the use of knockout models does have it's importance in science, as repeated in earlier comments, for medical research pertaining to humans we work on they don't come that clean (or inbred for that matter). Out bread lines? by BRADLEY ANDRESEN [Comment posted 2009-03-30 18:46:31] Strain does have a huge effect on the biology of a mouse, and many knockouts are not a pure strain. Moreover the percentage of the different strains changes with each generation. Therefore, KO mice are a clear instance where much care needs to be taken when designing a study and comparing the data.
However, one has to ask if science took a wrong turn when we moved away from outbreed lines. As stated in the article the end goal of biomedical science is positively affecting human health, and humans are not inbred. Therefore, if we expect animal models to reflect human populations shouldn't we use outbreed strains as well as multiple strains? Ludicrous! by Jonas Moses [Comment posted 2009-03-30 15:46:12] I have been engaged in laboratory and clinical research spanning over two decades, and have worked with laboratory animals - ranging from mice to monkeys - for much of that time. It is absolutely ridiculous to assert that standardization of research methods, especially concerning animal experimentation, would impede the ability of other labs to reproduce one's research. I was looking for the catch, when I first read the title of this article, and sure enough, there is a huge smoking gun, herein: "knockout mice."
No less than the former head of the NIH once stated that the use of knockout animals - in this case, mice - was a remarkable waste of time, for animal model studies of many (if not most) human disease processes. The obvious reason: human beings are wild type...and not gene-knockout engineered. In my own research of cancer - and that of my colleagues - the message has been clearest: wild-type animals (including wild-type mice) are and can be the only useful models for human disease...and then, only partially so. Human beings serve as the best models for human disease processes. This is not to say I advocate experimentation on humans; however, it is plain to this scientist that the further we stray away from human experimental subjects, as regards mice and other rodents, the less we see substantial correlation between disease processes and progression between these species. Yes, I am confident there will be a general row regarding this assertion...however, I cannot shy away from a reporting of the historical facts, merely because these are unpleasant and/or unpopular facts. Respectfully, Dr. Jonas Moses Comment on this blog |